00001
 1  IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR MONTGOMERY COUNTY, MARYLAND
 2  ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
 3  PAUL W. HASSLER
 4                     Plaintiff
 5            v.                        Civil Action No.
 6  SUZANNE ADELE SUTTON                    186394
 7                     Defendant
 8  ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
 9                      Rockville, Maryland
10                      Tuesday, January 26, 1999
11  Deposition of:
12                STEVEN G. SELEZNOW, Ph.D.
13  called for oral examination by counsel for the
14  Defendant, pursuant to notice, held in the offices of
15  Miller, Miller & Canby, 200B Monroe Street,
16  Rockville, Maryland, beginning at 8:30 a.m., before
17  Barbara Massengill, Registered Professional Reporter
18  and Notary Public in and for the State of Maryland,
19  when were present:
20  
21  
22  
00002
 1       ON BEHALF OF THE PLAINTIFF:
 2             CHARLES S. RAND, ESQUIRE
 3             McKernon & Rand
 4             207 Baltimore Road
 5             Rockville, Maryland 20850-4132
 6             (301) 762-1400
 7       ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENDANT:
 8             JOSEPH P. SUNTUM, ESQUIRE
 9             Miller, Miller & Canby
10             200B Monroe Street
11             Rockville, Maryland 20850
12             (301) 762-5212
13       ALSO PRESENT:
14             PAUL W. HASSLER
15             SUZANNE A. SUTTON
16  
17  
18  
19  
20  
21  
22  
00003
 1                     C O N T E N T S
 2  EXAMINATION OF STEVEN G. SELEZNOW, Ph.D.      PAGE
 3      By Mr. Suntum                                4
 4      By Mr. Rand                                 75
 5                     E X H I B I T S
 6                  (Retained by Counsel)
 7  DEFENDANT'S                                    PAGE
 8      1        11/12/97 Letter                    41
 9      2        Bates 324-372 Documents            43
10      3        Bates 265     Notes                44
11      4        E-mail                             49
12  
13  
14  
15  
16  
17  
18  
19  
20  
21  
22  
00004
 1                  P R O C E E D I N G S
 2                STEVEN G. SELEZNOW, PH.D.
 3      having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
 4        EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE DEFENDANT:
 5  BY MR. SUNTUM:
 6       Q    Dr. Seleznow, state your name and
 7  occupation for the record?
 8       A    Steven Seleznow.  Associate Superintendent
 9  for School Administration for Montgomery County
10  Public Schools.
11       Q    How long have you held that position?
12       A    This is my third year.
13       Q    What are your duties and responsibilities
14  as Associate Superintendent?
15       A    Our office, the office that I manage
16  oversees school administration and 185 schools in
17  Montgomery County Public Schools.  Primary mission is
18  to evaluate and supervise principals and monitor the
19  performance of schools and students.
20       Q    What is your educational background?
21       A    I have a Bachelor of Science degree from
22  the Boston University.  I have a Master of Arts in
00005
 1  Education Administration from the University of
 2  Maryland.  I have a Master's in Administration and
 3  Social Policy from Harvard; and Doctorate in the same
 4  from Harvard.
 5       Q    When did you get your B.S. degree from
 6  Boston, what year?
 7       A    1975.
 8       Q    And your Master of Arts in Education?
 9       A    I think it was '84 and then '88 and my
10  Doctorate in '94.  Maybe it was '89 the second one.
11       Q    How long have you been in the Montgomery
12  County school system?
13       A    My whole career beginning in 1975 as a
14  teacher and also as a principal.  I left several
15  times for my graduate work but spent my whole career
16  here.
17       Q    How many years did you teach?
18       A    I taught for about, in various capacities
19  for about 6 to 8 years.
20       Q    In what subjects?
21       A    I started at the elementary grades and
22  worked all the way up to middle school and worked
00006
 1  with middle and high school.  I was a specialist for
 2  gifted and honors program students and worked with
 3  high school, middle and elementary schools.
 4       Q    In particular subject areas?
 5       A    All subject areas.
 6       Q    Of what schools were you principal?
 7       A    I was principal of Highland View Elementary
 8  in lower Silver Spring and Blair cluster, White Oak
 9  Middle School, Springbrook cluster.
10       Q    When was your last principal position held?
11       A    I held a principalship at White Oak from
12  '90 to '92.  I became a director of school
13  administration where I oversaw three clusters,
14  Whitman, Seneca Valley and Wheaton, the middle
15  schools that fed to them and elementary schools for
16  four years before becoming Associate Superintendent.
17       Q    You mentioned that your duties and
18  responsibilities in the superintendent's office are
19  to oversee and supervise the principals and the
20  various schools' performances?
21       A    That's correct.
22       Q    How is Montgomery County Public Schools
00007
 1  organized with respect to the supervision of an
 2  individual high school?
 3       A    Basically what we have now is Director of
 4  School Administration for, we call them tri or quad
 5  clusters.  Each director, there are seven of them
 6  which work in my office, and each one of the
 7  directors has, like I said, three to four clusters.
 8  That means a high school in a cluster, the middle
 9  schools that feed to that high school and the
10  elementary schools that feed to that high school.
11  Each director supervises an average of about 28
12  schools.
13       Q    That includes all levels?
14       A    That includes all levels, the elementary
15  school, middle and high school.  They each have a
16  span of control.  There is one director for 28
17  schools, 28 principals.  Directors have no other
18  staff other than a secretary.
19            At one time we had area officers where we
20  had a lot more staff to do that supervision,
21  instructor supervisor, but it's simply the one
22  director, there are seven of them.
00008
 1       Q    Who is above the seven?
 2       A    I am.
 3       Q    Who is above you.
 4       A    Deputy Superintendent, Larry Bowers, who is
 5  Acting Superintendent right now, and the deputy and
 6  all the associate superintendents report to him and
 7  associate superintendent for technology, instruction
 8  and program development, supportive offices which are
 9  business operations and all of those offices report
10  to the deputy.
11       Q    Who is Mr. Glascoe, is he one of the
12  directors?
13       A    Mr. Glascoe is the director in charge of
14  the Wheaton cluster, Magruder and Rockville cluster
15  and all the schools that feed those high schools.
16       Q    So Mr. Glascoe would be the individual
17  director under you that's responsible for Magruder
18  High School?
19       A    That's right.  The principal is a direct
20  report to him; he's a direct report to me.
21       Q    Who is Ms. Liz Bouve-Johnson?
22       A    She's coordinator of secondary athletics.
00009
 1  She worked in the office of instruction program
 2  development which is one of those other offices I
 3  mentioned.  She works in the department of athletics,
 4  health and physical education.  She reports to the
 5  director of that department and her job is to manage
 6  and supervise secondary athletics.
 7       Q    What is her responsibility and/or authority
 8  with respect to evaluating high school coaches?
 9       A    She's not directly responsible for
10  evaluating them, but she's often, since she
11  supervises athletics generally, she consults on
12  individual cases in schools and can and has the
13  authority to observe coaches and provide her input
14  and feedback to the coaches and principals and
15  athletic directors that coaches report to.
16       Q    Who has responsibility for supervising high
17  school coaches?
18       A    The athletic director and the principal.
19       Q    What is the distribution of responsibility,
20  if any, between athletic director and the principal?
21       A    It may vary based on the style and approach
22  of the principals and the athletic directors, but
00010
 1  typically the athletic director supervises the
 2  athletic program at the school, observes, supervises
 3  and oversees the coaching and the coaches, reports
 4  directly to the principal regarding that process, so
 5  it's primarily the athletic director.
 6            You also have assistant principals in the
 7  school that have responsibility for athletics or
 8  different athletic events and those administrators
 9  are responsible for overseeing and supervising
10  coaches.  Ultimately the responsibility lies with the
11  principals but given the size of his school, that is
12  often delegated to the athletic detectors and
13  assistant principals.
14       Q    What is Montgomery County Public School's
15  policy, if any, with respect to sports in high school
16  in relationship with academics, is there a policy?
17       A    We have lots of different policies that
18  govern sports and athletics.  There is an athletic
19  handbook that guides the governance of the athletic
20  programs.  Our point of view is that our first order
21  of business is academics and student performance, but
22  the riches of our program requires, as we all know,
00011
 1  that high school athletics are an important part of
 2  student life, but they should be viewed as secondary
 3  to the academic program.  There are important
 4  programs, we invest a lot of money and time in
 5  developing athletic programs, we are proud of them
 6  across the county and the opportunities that they
 7  create for students, so we expect all high schools to
 8  have a full range of athletics for students and to
 9  have a strong athletic and extracurricular flow from
10  the newspaper and theater and drama and full range of
11  extracurricular activities.
12       Q    Is there any policy with respect to
13  resolution of conflicts between academics and
14  athletic activities?
15       A    That's a good question.  It's a constant
16  struggle in our schools because we have a variety of
17  competing forces that drive decisions.  Our feeling
18  is that academics come first.  We do know, for
19  example, we have issues with transportation and when
20  students go to various games at other events, when
21  they should leave school.  Sometimes due to
22  transportation the buses arrived before the end of
00012
 1  the day and the students need to go and may miss a
 2  class or so.  Clearly it is not something we like or
 3  prefer and it's something we're looking at.
 4  Primarily our policy, first order of business is
 5  academics and that's the priority of the school
 6  system.
 7       Q    What directives or instructions, if any,
 8  are you aware of that high school coaches are given
 9  with respect to accommodating conflicts with academic
10  pursuits in students on their sports teams?
11       A    I don't meet with the coaches or the
12  athletic directors, but scheduling of a high school
13  is a very complex endeavor.  Our aim is to assure
14  and, I believe from what I know and from my
15  experience and from the people that I work with, that
16  we emphasize our student athletes need to have a
17  strong academic program.  We have eligibility
18  guidelines which are reviewed by the athletic
19  director and coaches to be sure they are eligible to
20  play athletics, to make sure they're meeting the
21  academic standard and aim to make sure that the
22  academic program remains intact, and that's the
00013
 1  highest priority.
 2            There are times where the schedule drives
 3  certain conclusions and the expectation is that we
 4  will not force students to sacrifice their academic
 5  program on behalf of athletics, and we try to find
 6  solutions to those problems when there are conflicts.
 7  And it's also a question too of working with students
 8  and helping them prioritize the events and programs
 9  they participate in so that they don't get spread too
10  thin.
11       Q    Are you familiar with Gennie Maricle's high
12  school activities?
13       A    No.
14       Q    Does Montgomery County have any policy
15  concerning promoting or restricting student
16  activities in high school, the variety?
17       A    It really, as far as a policy is concerned,
18  I don't recall a policy that would restrict or limit
19  students.  We have eligibility criteria in terms of
20  what grade point average students are suppose to have
21  and there is an athlete's sign in some schools, code
22  of conduct, and they agree to certain kinds of
00014
 1  behavior in and outside of school.
 2            What our expectation is and certainly my
 3  expectation is that the staff of the high school
 4  should work closely with students and provide them
 5  guidance and to assure that they have the right
 6  academic program and extracurricular program, that
 7  they should make sure students are counseled
 8  appropriately so that they have the right balance of
 9  activities in their lives and work with both students
10  and their families to assure that they do.  I think
11  it's the responsibility of a staff at a school to
12  assess whether a student is having difficulty
13  managing a wild variety of events and counsel the
14  students appropriately.
15       Q    What is Montgomery County's policy on the
16  right of parents to complain to school authorities
17  when they have any concerns, if they have concerns
18  concerning a teacher or coach?
19       A    Parents have an absolute right to make any
20  complaint that they feel and the school system has a
21  clear policy on the parent complaint process.  There
22  are multiple ways parents can bring issues to the
00015
 1  administration of the school and the school system
 2  and they are completely free to share any concerns
 3  they have.
 4       Q    Is there any restriction in the Montgomery
 5  County school system concerning complaints have to go
 6  to the principal before going to anyone else in the
 7  system?
 8       A    There is no restriction.  What we try to do
 9  is say that complaints should be addressed at the
10  lowest possible level.  So, for example, if a parent
11  or student has a problem with a teacher or a staff
12  member in the school, we emphasize that we try to
13  work that problem out there first.  If that can't be
14  worked out between teacher and parents, the principal
15  or administration should be involved.  If it can't be
16  worked out there, then typically depending on the
17  nature of the problem, it comes to my office and to
18  the director, although parents are not restricted,
19  parents can write directly, and they do in Montgomery
20  County, to anyone; the board, superintendent, the
21  deputy, to me, to the directors to the principal.
22  Some write to the County Council, some parents write
00016
 1  to Congress, the President, and those letters come to
 2  us.  So they have absolutely no restrictions
 3  whatsoever.
 4       Q    When a complaint is received, do I
 5  understand correctly that the system attempts to
 6  filter that complaint down to the lowest possible
 7  person in authority to investigate and resolve it?
 8       A    In most of the cases, yes.  If a complaint
 9  goes to the superintendent, obviously the
10  superintendent can't personally investigate a
11  complaint, so he would delegate that to the
12  appropriate office to follow up on that particular
13  complaint.  We do -- again, when a complaint goes to
14  a higher level in the system, we try to get it
15  resolved at that particular level if we can.
16            You also understand the nature of schools
17  and parents and teachers and parents and principals
18  and sometimes some parents feel that they're more
19  comfortable complaining in a different place than the
20  location where they're at.
21       Q    You raise an interesting question:  If a
22  parent indicates that he or she is more comfortable
00017
 1  complaining in a different location than the school
 2  itself, how does Montgomery County respond to that
 3  complaint?
 4       A    We try to talk with the parent and see why
 5  we can't resolve it at the school, what are the
 6  issues at the school that prevent you from feeling
 7  that you can't have it resolved or heard there.
 8  We'll try to counsel the parent to bring that
 9  complaint back to the school.  We'll hear what the
10  parent has to say.  Sometimes in some cases the
11  director will intervene personally, sometimes I will
12  intervene personally depending on the nature of the
13  issue or the complaint.  So if, we really have to
14  hear based on what problem they share with us, we
15  have to hear the issues and concerns and make the
16  best judgment, what is the best way to go about this.
17       Q    What are the teacher's or coach's rights to
18  be made aware of any substance or source of the
19  complaint against them.
20       A    If a complaint is made -- this is
21  negotiated through the teachers through their
22  contract with the union -- when a complaint is made
00018
 1  and a principal is investigating that complaint, it's
 2  the responsibility of the principal to make the
 3  teacher aware of the complaint, to verify and to
 4  determine whether the complaint is accurate.  And in
 5  order to investigate that teacher, if this is to be
 6  part of the formal record, this teacher needs to be
 7  made aware of that particular complaint and has a
 8  right to see it and know that it has been made.
 9            There are times with anonymous letters, for
10  example, that we may receive or a principal may
11  receive regarding a staff member.  An anonymous
12  complaint is typically not made part of the record
13  because they cannot be, there is no signature to it
14  so it's very difficult to investigate those, whereas
15  letters can be shared, although typically they are
16  not entered into the formal record.
17       Q    When you say formal record --
18       A    A school file.
19       Q    In your experience as a teacher, principal
20  and administrator, how often have you been made aware
21  that some parents feel uncomfortable in complaining
22  against teachers on the record and being identified
00019
 1  as a source of complaint?
 2       A    In the cases of complaints that is a
 3  typical concern of most parents.
 4       Q    And how the does Montgomery County School
 5  System resolve that conflict?
 6       A    We try to work with the parents and
 7  typically what we say is that it's difficult for us
 8  to try to resolve a complaint or any allegations of
 9  concern or a problem without being able to bring that
10  forward to the individual or the situation you're
11  complaining about.  We try to convey to the parents
12  and sometimes convince the parents to allow us to
13  have that information so that we can pursue it as
14  rigorously as we possibly can.
15            Parents often express concerns about if
16  their complaint is made known to the individuals that
17  they're complaining about that they fear retribution
18  or that something untoward may happen to their child
19  as a result of that, and we try to reassure them that
20  we'll make sure that that won't happen and that we'll
21  monitor closely, but typically for us to mount a full
22  and complete and thorough investigation we need to
00020
 1  reveal the nature of the complaint to the parents who
 2  might be involved.
 3       Q    What would be the responsibilities of a
 4  principal in a high school that receives repeated
 5  oral complaints concerning a teacher but none of the
 6  parents wish to be put on the record, so to speak?
 7       A    That's a difficult dilemma for us.  We
 8  often will ask that parents put their concerns in
 9  writing.  Typically for a principal, a principal
10  gathers that information, gathers lots of information
11  as they supervise their schools.  They should not
12  ignore those oral concerns, however they should not
13  be made part of the formal record because there is no
14  formal record, but there is a signal to the principal
15  that there may be concerns based on what they're
16  hearing and they need to follow up.  And it would
17  typically be, I would hope that principals would say
18  to parents, I would like you to put those concerns in
19  writing so that I can follow up with them formally.
20  Principals typically, and as a principal you receive
21  lots of information, good, bad or indifferent about
22  anyone on your staff and it's all information that
00021
 1  principals receive all the time.
 2       Q    If the information is brought to your
 3  principal's attention, why can not the principal
 4  investigate whether or not those complaints are valid
 5  or accurate without having a formal source of
 6  complaint?
 7       A    They can investigate.  They can follow up
 8  on those complaints.  They can pursue them.  They
 9  don't have to have a complaint in writing to follow
10  up on.  Most principals request that in writing so
11  that they can document their case as they move
12  forward.  That enables them to have a stronger case
13  or a stronger record of what the concerns are in
14  their pursuit of resolving those problems or concerns
15  but they certainly are expected, if you are a parent
16  and you come to me with a complaint, my expectation
17  as the principal would be to follow up.  They may
18  talk to the particular teacher or staff member and
19  say I have received a complaint from a parent and
20  what can you tell me about it.  So I would expect a
21  principal would follow up on that information.
22       Q    You mentioned a union contract, I assume
00022
 1  the school system has a contract that covers and
 2  dictates how it relates to the teachers in the
 3  system?
 4       A    That's correct.
 5       Q    What flexibility or authority does a
 6  principal have to supervise and/or discipline a
 7  teacher in the Montgomery County school system?
 8       A    They have the authority to do that.
 9       Q    Does it require formal process,
10  investigation and findings adverse to the teacher
11  prior to any discipline being imposed?
12       A    Principals should have cause for
13  disciplinary action.
14            MR. RAND:  Could you state your answer
15  again, please?
16       A    The principal should have a cause for
17  taking disciplinary action against a staff member.
18  BY MR. SUNTUM:
19       Q    Here's a hypothetical:  A principal is
20  receiving repeated oral complaints concerning a
21  particular behavior of a teacher but none of the
22  parents wish or students wish to be identified as the
00023
 1  source of those complaints.
 2            Does the principal have any ability to
 3  impose discipline and/or corrective procedure on the
 4  teacher absent formal, identified complaints?
 5       A    If a principal receives numerous
 6  complaints, oral complaints, the principal can and
 7  should follow up with the teacher and can indicate to
 8  the teacher that he or she has received numerous oral
 9  complaints, that the parents are fearful or wish not
10  to be identified.  The problem with that in terms of
11  following through on any investigation is that the
12  individual that you are disciplining can challenge
13  that, can challenge the veracity of it.  So you
14  typically do not have as strong of a case in terms of
15  disciplinary action, although principals may take
16  disciplinary action on the information whether it's
17  oral or written that they receive.  They have to
18  judge that information and corroborate as best they
19  can whether that information is true or factual,
20  whether they judge it to be factual.
21       Q    Taking that situation one step further
22  assume that the principal advises the teacher that
00024
 1  he's receiving numerous and consistent complaints
 2  about the teacher's behavior and therefore would like
 3  the teacher to have a, take a human relations course
 4  to improve this relationship with the students?  Does
 5  the teacher have a right to refuse to take that
 6  course?
 7       A    I don't believe so.  I think part of a
 8  principal's responsibility is to identify what
 9  training is needed as part of an evaluation.  A
10  principal can and part of the evaluation requires
11  identifying areas for training, so it's not
12  unreasonable for a principal to say I would like you
13  to attend this training.
14       Q    What responsibility does a principal have
15  to be aware of how a teacher conducts himself in
16  class and as a coach?
17       A    It's their responsibility to know how all
18  their staff is performing.
19       Q    Do they have an affirmative obligation to
20  investigate rumors or word of mouth concerning
21  particular teachers and how to conduct themselves?
22       A    They have to be available to all
00025
 1  information they receive.  If they pick up rumors,
 2  and often there are rumors, they have the
 3  responsibility to find out what's going on, what may
 4  be behind it whether it can be verified to be true or
 5  not.  In a school setting and with children you have
 6  to have your ears open to anything that you might
 7  hear and be willing to pursue what you may hear.
 8       Q    What are the procedures that are available
 9  to a principal to confirm information that the
10  principal receives about a teacher's behavior in
11  class?
12       A    First there is the observation process
13  where every teacher in a high school is supervised,
14  instructed, supervised by the resource teacher, which
15  is the department chair, and assistant principal and
16  principal.  So one approach is to observe formally in
17  the classroom -- there is a formal process for doing
18  that -- or observe informally in the classroom.  One
19  is to talk to the staff members that you have that
20  supervise those individuals.  One is to talk with
21  parents.  If you receive or pick up a rumor and you
22  need to verify that rumor, your obligation is to find
00026
 1  whatever information you can to see if the rumor is
 2  founded and whether there is something there that you
 3  need to pursue.
 4       Q    Doesn't the formal observation procedure
 5  require advance notice to the teacher that is in fact
 6  going to be observed?
 7       A    It does not require advance notice.
 8  Different supervisors of teachers use a variety of
 9  different strategies which they are free to use.  The
10  only observations that are announced are formal
11  observations.  Some formal observations can we
12  unannounced.  A principal or resource teacher or
13  administrator in the school can walk into any
14  classroom at any time and observe the teacher
15  formally without having to provide advance notice.
16       Q    So an objection by a teacher that he should
17  not be observed without having 24 hours notice and an
18  opportunity to meet the person doing the evaluation
19  in advance is --
20       A    It is not required.
21       Q    -- not founded.
22            If a principal became aware that a
00027
 1  particular teacher habitually made jokes in class,
 2  either sexual connotation, ethnic jokes, blonde
 3  jokes, jokes of that nature, how would that principal
 4  investigate the accuracy of that information and what
 5  action should be taken?
 6       A    In a case like that, obviously if the
 7  principal walks into the classroom, it would be
 8  unlikely that a staff member would engage in that
 9  behavior in front of the supervisors, so that is
10  probably not a method where you would be able to
11  confirm that.  My expectation is that if the
12  principal received information that this is happening
13  there would be two approaches that I would expect the
14  principal to you use:  One is to address the teacher
15  directly to determine whether the teacher, whether in
16  fact you present the information that you have to the
17  teacher and say is it true that you have made these
18  comments in your class and to establish verification
19  or give the teacher the opportunity to respond to
20  that.
21            The other approach is to ask students
22  directly if the principal received complaints that
00028
 1  such jokes were made, it is appropriate for the
 2  principal to pursue that with the students.
 3       Q    Does Montgomery County Public Schools have
 4  a policy or position whether or not it's appropriate
 5  for high school teachers in Montgomery County to tell
 6  blonde jokes, for example, jokes referring to the
 7  blond color of female hair?
 8       A    It would be inappropriate.
 9       Q    Do you believe that all teachers in
10  Montgomery County Public High Schools are aware that
11  it's inappropriate to tell such jokes?
12       A    I would certainly expect that they are.
13       Q    If the Montgomery County Public School
14  System was made aware that a teacher habitually told
15  such jokes, what action should be taken?
16       A    I would expect that the principal with that
17  information, with that information would pursue that
18  with the teacher to verify its truth, and if so
19  determined, take disciplinary action to that teacher.
20  Disciplinary action would be that teacher would be
21  warned not to do that and informed if that were to
22  continue, other disciplinary action would be taken.
00029
 1  So that is certainly cause for disciplinary action.
 2       Q    Would it be appropriate for a Montgomery
 3  County high school teacher to tell jokes with a
 4  sexual connotation?
 5       A    It would be absolutely inappropriate.
 6       Q    And if a principal or the Montgomery County
 7  school system was made aware that a teacher did in
 8  fact habitually make such jokes, what action should
 9  be taken?
10       A    I would expect that if such jokes were made
11  in the classroom that the principal would verify
12  that, the jokes, said principal should take
13  disciplinary action in terms of a series of
14  progressive disciplinary actions including reprimand
15  or possibly even stronger discipline depending on the
16  nature of what has happened in the class and what the
17  principal found.
18       Q    Would you agree that it's important for a
19  teacher in Montgomery County Public Schools to
20  facilitate a feeling in the class that the students
21  should be comfortable asking questions as opposed to
22  being humiliated and ridiculed if they did?
00030
 1       A    Our expectation is that the teaching and
 2  learning process requires students to ask questions
 3  of teachers freely and openly and they should not
 4  experience any ridicule or humiliation anywhere in
 5  their experience at the schools.
 6       Q    If Montgomery County Public Schools was
 7  made aware that many students, past and present, had
 8  a similar and consistent characterization of a
 9  teacher of being one that humiliated students and
10  therefore caused students to be uncomfortable asking
11  questions, how would you suggest that a principal in
12  that high school where the teacher teaches respond to
13  that information?
14       A    Again I would expect that the principal and
15  the principal's staff would verify what was happening
16  in class, observing the classroom, gather as much
17  information as they could, meet with the teacher,
18  develop a plan for the teacher, put in place a plan
19  so that the teacher could change that behavior.  If
20  that behavior couldn't be changed, I would expect the
21  principal to follow the proper supervisory and
22  evaluation process to deal with that behavior.  It's
00031
 1  not acceptable for that to occur.  I would expect
 2  principals to be able to document a case of that
 3  occurring in class and put in place a plan to change
 4  it.
 5       Q    Getting to this particular case, you are
 6  aware of the letter Ms. Sutton wrote complaining
 7  about Mr. Hassler?
 8       A    That is correct.
 9       Q    There appears to be some contention on Mr.
10  Hassler's part that the objections that Ms. Sutton
11  has against him are simply a matter of style and do
12  not constitute abuse as she characterized it.  Where
13  do you draw the line in evaluating whether such
14  relationships with students leave the student feeling
15  uncomfortable for asking questions or employs ethnic
16  or sexual type remarks and comments where that
17  becomes abuse as to simply a matter of style and
18  teacher approach?
19       A    I don't think that style would permit
20  humiliation or abuse to occur.  That would not be a
21  defense for style in my view.  So a teacher's
22  teaching style should not include, no matter what the
00032
 1  style is, any sense of humiliation of a student or
 2  clearly abuse of a student.  So that's how we would
 3  characterize it.  Certainly that is how I would
 4  characterize it.
 5            Now, different students clearly react to
 6  teachers in different ways and different styles that
 7  teachers use and we don't promote an individual style
 8  for a particular teacher.  We promote certain
 9  outcomes that we expect and certain instructional
10  practices be employed, and in terms of interactive
11  style, some teachers use humor more than others, some
12  are more firm, some engage with different kinds of
13  repartees with students and there are different kinds
14  of relationships, but clearly the things you
15  mentioned would not be included as one's style, would
16  not be acceptable as teaching style or practice.
17            I can't really answer your question about
18  what is abuse or what would be perceived as abuse.  I
19  would think that again we have some policies and a
20  definition on abuse with respect to students.  So I'm
21  not quite sure what you are --
22       Q    Let me ask another question.  If a teacher
00033
 1  is warned about a particular joke that that teacher
 2  tells every class, and in fact a parent asks that his
 3  student be withdrawn from the class and moved to
 4  another one in light of the inappropriate jokes and
 5  that teacher continues to tell that particular joke
 6  for the next ten years and it became known to the
 7  principal that that has happened, what should the
 8  reaction be, another warning?
 9       A    I think it's the responsibility of the
10  principal to take that information, to verify the
11  information and to take disciplinary action.  If the
12  teacher has been warned in the past about that, then
13  the principal should follow up aggressively with
14  other forms of discipline.
15       Q    Are you familiar with the Indiana
16  University basketball coach, Bobby Knight?
17       A    From television.
18       Q    And his reputation for screaming and
19  yelling on television, that's your understanding of
20  his coaching style?
21       A    So I'm told.  I don't follow Indiana
22  basketball that closely.
00034
 1       Q    Would such style be appropriate in a
 2  Montgomery County school at the high school level?
 3       A    I don't -- you mean screaming and yelling
 4  at players?
 5       Q    Yes.
 6       A    I don't think that screaming and yelling is
 7  a style that we support and we know that in athletic
 8  events there are lots of emotions involved in the
 9  events, but certainly screaming and yelling at
10  students is not an acceptable practice.
11       Q    Let me ask you about that.  I understand
12  there is a union contract that covers teachers and
13  teachers' rights to be advised of complaints and
14  participate in the investigative process before being
15  disciplined.  Is there a similar right with respect
16  to coaches?  Do coaches have a similar right or
17  interest in continuing on as a coach that certain
18  procedures need to be filed before removal?
19       A    Whenever you are disciplining a teacher or
20  coach, the continuation process for coaches is a
21  different continuation process for teacher.  There
22  are different procedures that guide the selection of
00035
 1  coaches and continuation of teachers.
 2       Q    With respect to coaches, if you have a
 3  coach that is coaching a high school team does he
 4  have a right to continue coaching the team even if
 5  there are no complaints against him or is the
 6  principal free to switch?
 7       A    The principal each year is to assess the
 8  coach, the needs of the school, the needs of the team
 9  and with cause or have fair reason for indicating to
10  a coach that the principal would not want to continue
11  that coach or that particular sport.
12       Q    The answer seems to imply that the
13  principal needs cause to not renew a coaching
14  appointment?
15       A    The principal would need as part of
16  managing that school and supervising the staff, if a
17  principal were to remove a coach they would need to
18  explain to the coach why they would remove him and
19  what the basis was.
20       Q    What right would a coach have to object in
21  the process?
22       A    The coach has a right to appeal those
00036
 1  decisions, anybody can appeal any decision.
 2       Q    What I am trying to get to, what are the
 3  standards that would we applied other than need?
 4  What other, if the principal simply doesn't like the
 5  coach and thinks somebody with a different style
 6  would be more appropriate in his school, does he have
 7  the right to replace the coach?
 8       A    The principal does.
 9       Q    So the coach has no right not to be removed
10  for matters of style?
11       A    They can contest the principal's decision.
12       Q    Do they have grounds to protest other than
13  filing the paper?
14       A    Depends on the nature of the case.  In our
15  school system it's pretty common that people will
16  contest most of the decisions that get made, but they
17  may contest that the principal has the authority to
18  hire and remove coaches.
19       Q    Simply for matter of style, he prefers one
20  style over another?
21       A    That could be a reason that a principal
22  might see a different coaching style in a particular
00037
 1  team.
 2       Q    That decision would be upheld on appeal?
 3       A    I don't hear those appeals but my
 4  presumption would be that that could be upheld
 5  depending on the circumstances and the principal's
 6  perspective, whatever might be introduced in the
 7  case.
 8            But the point that I would make on that is
 9  that the principal, in terms of managing his or her
10  school or his or her interaction and relations with
11  staff has a variety of factors to look at whenever he
12  makes a decision with respect to coaches or staff
13  placement, whether you are moving a teacher, the
14  principal has the right to move a teacher from one
15  class to another based on their expertise and
16  qualifications, and typically although they have the
17  right to do that, they want to involve the teacher in
18  that decision and make sure that the decisions they
19  make will work in the best interests of the school.
20       Q    Do I understand from your earlier answers
21  that if a principal receives numerous oral complaints
22  about a teacher that the principal has no authority
00038
 1  to make a written record himself of those?
 2       A    The principal can make a written report of
 3  that.
 4       Q    But he can't put that in the file?
 5       A    The principal could put that in the file.
 6  A principal can add any records to the file.  Now
 7  teachers and staff have a right to contest anything.
 8  If the principal makes a written record, I have
 9  received five parent complaints, oral complaints, the
10  principal has to verify that those are true.  The
11  principal would be expected to share that with the
12  teacher, the teacher initials when it goes into the
13  file.  The principal can make their own records and
14  include what they wish in the file.  The teacher has
15  right to contest, appeal placement in the file, the
16  principal has the right and authority to do that.
17       Q    What would be the basis of an appeal if a
18  principal says I am making a note to the file that I
19  have received five complaints in the last month
20  concerning this particular teacher period.
21       A    Really it depends.  Usually on the other
22  side of those appeals as opposed to making those
00039
 1  appeals, but the teacher could question their
 2  authenticity, could question their veracity, could
 3  say that they are not true, present that
 4  documentation from a different perspective.
 5  Teacher's are given the right to attach their
 6  response to anything that the principal might put in
 7  the file.  So that a statement that the principal may
 8  write up, the teacher could have attached to that
 9  their response to that particular statement or the
10  teacher could contest and seek through an appeal
11  grievance process to have it removed.  That grievance
12  process could go through several levels all the way
13  up to the State Board of Education.
14       Q    Are you familiar with Paul Hassler?
15       A    Only through this particular case.
16       Q    Prior to this particular case, I understand
17  your involvement started November 1997?
18       A    That's right.
19       Q    Prior to November 1997 you had no knowledge
20  of Mr. Hassler?
21       A    No, in fact this is the first time I have
22  met him.
00040
 1       Q    What is the Montgomery County Public
 2  School's policy with respect to maintaining reports
 3  of an investigation such as that was conducted in
 4  this case?
 5       A    The expectation is that in any case that
 6  this matter be investigated thoroughly, that the
 7  school would keep whatever records that spoke to this
 8  particular case, the principal would make a decision
 9  in terms of what documents or records should be
10  placed in the school file or what records would be
11  placed in a central file, personnel file in
12  Rockville.
13       Q    Now did you understand that Mr. Nori, the
14  principal of Magruder, he was involved in this
15  investigation?
16       A    That's right.
17       Q    And responsible for it?
18       A    That's correct.
19       Q    You understand that he spoke allegedly to
20  numerous parents, students and other individuals
21  involved concerning his complaints?
22       A    Yes, indeed I do know that.
00041
 1       Q    Are you aware that all of any notes or
 2  documents concerning those discussions with these
 3  various witnesses have not been maintained?
 4       A    I don't know what he maintained or what he
 5  did not maintain.
 6       Q    If I suggest to you that he prepared a memo
 7  summarizing his investigation and that's the sole
 8  document that has been retained from the
 9  investigation, do you find that appropriate?
10            MR. RAND:  Objection, you may answer.
11       A    It's the principal's responsibility to make
12  that determination in terms of what documents they
13  feel are pertinent to save or not save in an
14  investigation, what notes to keep or what notes not
15  to keep.
16            (Exhibit Number 1 was marked for
17  identification and was retained by counsel.)
18  BY MR. SUNTUM:
19       Q    Dr. Seleznow, let me show you what has been
20  marked as Deposition Exhibit Number 1, which is a
21  copy of Mrs. Sutton's letter of November 12, 1997 and
22  ask you if in fact you received a copy of that
00042
 1  letter?
 2       A    I did.
 3       Q    Let me direct your attention to the last
 4  page and ask you if you can identify who the four
 5  other individuals other than yourself who were copied
 6  with this letter are?
 7       A    Reginald Felton, I believe, was president
 8  of the board at that time.
 9       Q    Board of Education?
10       A    Board of Education.
11            Dr. Vance, Superintendent of Schools.
12            Mike Glascoe, Director of School
13  Administration.
14            Katherine Gemberling was Deputy
15  Superintendent at that time, since retired; and
16  myself.
17       Q    Was it inappropriate for Mrs. Sutton to
18  copy this letter to any of those five individuals?
19       A    It's not uncommon for parents to copy these
20  individuals on any letter they might send to a
21  principal, it's rather common.  It does make, when it
22  goes to the board, this becomes a public document
00043
 1  then.  All documents that go to the board are public.
 2       Q    What do you mean by public document?
 3       A    That it's available for anyone who requests
 4  it to be able to see it because when a letter goes to
 5  the president of the board, it's immediately copied
 6  to all board members, it becomes part of the official
 7  board record which is public information at that
 8  point.
 9       Q    This letter, what was your reaction when
10  you received this letter?
11       A    I had actually received this letter with a
12  copy of cover materials I believe.  I reacted
13  immediately to this letter, and in fact as I read the
14  letter I had contacted Mrs. Sutton to discuss these
15  concerns with her and let her know that we would be
16  doing an investigation.
17            (Exhibit Number 2 was marked for
18  identification and was retained by counsel.)
19  BY MR. SUNTUM:
20       Q    Let me show you what has been marked as
21  Deposition Exhibit Number 2, which is a series of
22  documents with Bates numbers 324 and ending with
00044
 1  number 372.
 2            Is this in fact a copy of the documents
 3  that your office provided to me yesterday?
 4       A    I believe so, yes.
 5       Q    Directing your attention to the first page,
 6  Bates stamped 324, there is some handwriting.  Do you
 7  know whose handwriting that is?
 8       A    I'm not sure, I believe it's the
 9  superintendent's.
10       Q    Are you able to read or decipher that note?
11       A    It's a note to the superintendent's
12  executive assistant, Dr. Hahn, the first part is for
13  action, which means that this would be sent to my
14  office to investigate and monitor and prepare a
15  response for the superintendent.
16            (Exhibit Number 3 was marked for
17  identification and was retained by counsel.)
18  BY MR. SUNTUM:
19       Q    Exhibit Number 3, I will represent to you
20  that that's a copy of Suzanne Sutton's notes marked
21  as Deposition Exhibit 3, Bates 265, of a meeting or
22  telephone call that she had with you on November 23,
00045
 1  1997, and after the break I would like to ask you
 2  whether or not those notes accurately reflect the
 3  telephone conversation you had with Ms. Sutton.
 4       A    I can't speak to the actual words that are
 5  here.  I recall calling Mrs. Sutton as I did my mail
 6  on Sunday afternoon conveying to her that I was
 7  concerned about the allegations, and that we would do
 8  a full and thorough investigation, but I just simply
 9  can't recall the exact words that I used in that
10  conversation.
11            (A brief recess was taken.)
12  BY MR. SUNTUM:
13       Q    Dr. Seleznow, referring to Deposition
14  Exhibit 3, which is Bates stamped 265, which I
15  represented were copies of Suzanne Sutton's notes of
16  her telephone call with you, in reviewing those
17  notes, is there anything that is reflected there that
18  you contend absolutely was not said?
19       A    I don't recall the exact words of the
20  conversation because I don't have, this was an
21  interactive conversation and these are obviously
22  quotes of that conversation, and I can't recall the
00046
 1  exact words, so I'm not going to contest anything
 2  that is on here.  I called Mrs. Sutton that day as I
 3  received that packet in the mail, I read through the
 4  allegations and I wanted to convey to Mrs. Sutton
 5  that we would take it seriously, she had raised some
 6  concerns about it, to try to allay her concerns, let
 7  her know we would take it seriously, that we would
 8  investigate all the items that she had indicated, so
 9  I can't speak to the exact words.  I know we had a
10  conversation for probably about a half-hour on that
11  Sunday afternoon.
12       Q    Would it be fair to say that you receive
13  copies of a lot of letters of complaints in your
14  position?
15       A    I do.
16       Q    Is it also fair to say that you do not
17  respond to most of them and certainly not on Sunday
18  afternoons?
19       A    Well I am doing my mail on Sunday
20  afternoons.  I don't call on every complaint, I don't
21  call parents on every complaint.  Based on the
22  complaint, the information I receive, I make a call
00047
 1  to parents to let them know that we have received it.
 2  Often it takes some time for the letters to the
 3  superintendent to find their way to my office.  I
 4  felt in this case I didn't want anything to be
 5  delayed.
 6       Q    These notes reflect a comment that the
 7  letter from Mrs. Sutton dated November 2, 1997 also
 8  reflected or suggested some problems in the classroom
 9  and that after the athletic or coaching issues were
10  addressed the classroom issues would be addressed.
11  Do you recall any discussion in that regard?
12       A    I remember we had some discussion because
13  as I understood it most of the allegations were with
14  respect to coaching, and that was the focus of the
15  conversation.  My understanding was that the
16  classroom issues, while there are classroom issues
17  expressed, and I don't recall the exact circumstances
18  of Mrs. Sutton's involvement with Mr. Hassler's
19  classroom, I don't remember her talking about issues
20  with some of the students, that's what I recall, but
21  that we would also look into any issues in the
22  classroom because they are items indicated in her
00048
 1  complaint.
 2       Q    Do you know whether or not any
 3  investigation ever took place?
 4       A    The principal was instructed to follow up
 5  on the complaints regarding classroom behaviors, to
 6  mobilize his staff as we would in supervising a
 7  complaint about a teacher as we would to follow up on
 8  those complaints.
 9       Q    Is it your understanding that Mr. Nori did
10  such a thing?
11       A    It's my understanding that he did.
12       Q    Do you have documents that would reflect
13  that he did such an investigation?
14       A    I don't believe so, I don't recall seeing
15  any, he was asked to do so.
16       Q    Also it reflects that the investigation was
17  going to be conducted by Michael Glascoe and Mr.
18  Nori?
19       A    Right.
20       Q    And they would contact Mrs. Sutton and that
21  you hoped they would work with her or she would work
22  with them in the investigation.  Do you know whether
00049
 1  or not Mr. Nori or Glascoe ever contacted Mrs. Sutton
 2  for her assistance in the investigation?
 3       A    I wouldn't characterize it for assistance,
 4  I would characterize it as cooperation, provide
 5  whatever additional information they might need,
 6  parents do not assist, they provide information.  My
 7  intent in addressing any issue with a parent would
 8  be, as we discussed earlier, to be able to stand
 9  behind the allegations so that we could include them
10  as part of the record.
11       Q    Do you know whether or not Mr. Nori or Mr.
12  Glascoe ever contacted Mrs. Sutton for additional
13  information?
14       A    It's my understanding that they had
15  certainly, it was my understanding that Mrs. Sutton
16  had been contacted.  I don't know exactly when, but
17  I, in conversations with Mike Glascoe, I recall that
18  he had had some conversations with Mrs. Sutton, I
19  don't know how many, I don't know how often.
20            (Exhibit Number 4 was marked for
21  identification and was retained by counsel.)
22  BY MR. SUNTUM:
00050
 1       Q    Dr. Seleznow, do you recall receiving a
 2  telephone call and e-mail from Mrs. Sutton shortly
 3  after the investigation or shortly after your
 4  telephone conversation with her on November 23rd
 5  where she expressed concern that her identity and
 6  complaint had been disclosed to Mr. Hassler?
 7       A    I recall that.  I don't recall that
 8  conversation or the e-mail but I knew that she was
 9  concerned, yes.  As a matter of fact she was very
10  concerned that Mr. Nori had shared the letter with
11  Mr. Hassler.
12       Q    Do you recall what her concerns were?
13       A    I don't recall directly.  I know she was
14  concerned, is what I recall, that she was concerned
15  that it had been done, that she didn't know he was
16  going to share it with Mr. Hassler and she was taken
17  by surprise.
18       Q    And in fact a portion of the documents you
19  provided yesterday, specifically Bates stamp 337, is
20  a copy of an e-mail to you from her concerning that
21  issue, correct?
22       A    Yes.
00051
 1       Q    Let me show you what has been marked as
 2  Deposition Exhibit Number 4 and I'll represent to you
 3  again that those are, the bottom paragraphs on that
 4  page, a copy of Mrs. Sutton's notes of a telephone
 5  conversation with you.  Do you recall those notes as
 6  being accurate?
 7            MR. RAND:  Is that document 267?
 8            MR. SUNTUM:  Yes, it is.
 9       A    Yes.  I do recall that and as I had
10  mentioned earlier, the document had become a public
11  document, but again I felt that she should have been
12  informed of that ahead of time.  I don't recall the
13  last sentence, but I'm not going to contest the
14  conversation that I had.
15  BY MR. SUNTUM:
16       Q    Let me ask you to turn to Bates stamped 340
17  in Deposition Exhibit Number 2 which are the
18  documents that you provided yesterday.
19            Do you recall receiving a copy of that
20  letter?
21       A    Vaguely, I can't place it offhand but I
22  have seen this letter.
00052
 1       Q    That letter is dated October 30, 1997,
 2  consequently it appears that that letter was sent to
 3  Mr. Nori a couple weeks before Mrs. Sutton sent her
 4  letter, correct?
 5       A    It would suggest, that, yes.  This was sent
 6  to Ms. Bouve-Johnson.
 7       Q    Do you have any explanation as to why a
 8  copy of this letter was not in a copy of Mr.
 9  Hassler's personnel file?
10       A    I have no idea.
11       Q    Was it your understanding that this should
12  have been in the personnel file?
13       A    It's the responsibility of the principal to
14  review this material.  He would be required to verify
15  that it's true, to share it with the teacher, to have
16  the teacher initial it and place it in the file.
17       Q    But if the author of this particular letter
18  dated October 30th, did not want to be identified to
19  Mr. Hassler, then it would be inappropriate for Mr.
20  Nori to put it in his file?
21       A    Typically an anonymous letter would not go
22  into a teacher's file.
00053
 1       Q    There is a difference between an anonymous
 2  letter and a letter in which the author wishes to
 3  maintain the confidentiality, is there not?
 4       A    Yes.
 5       Q    So assume Mr. Nori knew the author of that
 6  letter.
 7       A    That the author had signed it in the letter
 8  that went to Mr. Nori?
 9       Q    Yes.
10       A    Absolutely, that would be something I would
11  expect the principal to follow up on.  Again the same
12  procedure that I mentioned before should be followed,
13  verified that the information is accurate, share it
14  with the teacher, involvement of the teacher,
15  initialed that they had had the opportunity to review
16  it, see it, and if they wished to contest it they
17  could.
18       Q    Now the context of these letters were
19  complaints against Mr. Hassler, one as a wrestling
20  coach and one as a softball coach, correct, an
21  October 30th letter and November 12th letter.
22       A    Obviously it is the wrestling.
00054
 1       Q    The context of Mrs. Sutton's letter of
 2  November 12th was to put in writing complaints that
 3  Mrs. Sutton had made to Mr. Nori in August of that
 4  year, is that correct?
 5       A    That is correct as I recall.
 6       Q    As far as I understand it Mr. Nori, as
 7  principal of Magruder, had complete authority to not
 8  to appoint Mr. Hassler as softball coach?
 9       A    It is Mr. Nori's decision in terms of who
10  he assigns to coaching positions.
11       Q    It appears to me, and correct me if your
12  impression is different, but the complaints made by
13  the author of the October 30th letter concerning
14  having observed Mr. Hassler berate and humiliate
15  wrestlers, exhibit a poor example of sportsmanship
16  and that she's writing and reflecting the opinion of
17  many other parents, are similar to the complaints
18  being made by Mrs. Sutton in our letter of
19  November 12th, correct?
20            MR. RAND:  Objection.
21       A    Again, in any letter the expectation of the
22  principal is to follow up on that letter.  This is a
00055
 1  complaint that he would need to verify, to find out,
 2  substantiate, if this is one perspective there are
 3  other perspectives out there that are different than
 4  this, others that feel the opposite of this, and he
 5  would have to make a judgment about the merits of
 6  this particular letter and his decision as to whether
 7  or not he should continue this person as coach or
 8  not.
 9            Typically with one letter, and with
10  athletics it's a very unique situation, there are
11  typically a range of views and emotions that play out
12  with athletics and coaches so some that you may talk
13  to may see a very different perspective for a coach
14  than the one complaining, thus it is the principal's
15  responsibility to find out whether the facts of these
16  are true and use that information to make a decision.
17            One of the things a would emphasize in this
18  particular case is that Mr. Nori became principal, I
19  believe, in the summer of that year, was not familiar
20  with the staff of the school, was not familiar with
21  the programs of the staff and was familiarizing
22  himself with the entire staff and program, so he's
00056
 1  sorting through information in terms of making his
 2  judgments about people and trying to gather the
 3  information that he needs to make those decisions.
 4       Q    What I'm trying to understand is what is
 5  the standard of review, if you will, if the situation
 6  is Mr. Nori is a new principal, Mrs. Sutton has
 7  testified that she went in the spring of the previous
 8  year to Mr. Gramm, the previous principal, was
 9  directed do raise her concerns directly with Mr. Nori
10  when he came on board.  She went to Mr. Nori in
11  August, he said put her concerns in writing.
12            The first question, was it standard
13  operating procedure for Mr. Nori to simply take no
14  action from August to November until they'll got it
15  in writing?
16       A    No.  I think it's the principal's
17  responsibility whether they're a new principal or not
18  to take in the information that they have to make the
19  best possible decisions they can on that information.
20  They have to gather as much background as they can on
21  the entire staff, all the coaches, all the teaching
22  staff, all the support staff that are in the school
00057
 1  and to try to make the best decisions that he can
 2  based on the staff that he has and the
 3  recommendations that he has from his staff regarding
 4  the different people that work there.  So clearly a
 5  principal does not have do wait to receive something
 6  in writing if concerns have been expressed to him.
 7  But every principal has to absorb a great deal of
 8  information and make some decisions as soon as they
 9  possibly can and verify as much information as they
10  can.
11       Q    If the substance of Mrs. Sutton's letter
12  November 12th was conveyed to Mr. Nori in August of
13  that year and the purpose of conveying that
14  information was to request him not to reappoint Mr.
15  Hassler as the softball coach in the spring of 1998,
16  what should Mr. Nori have done with that information
17  when received in August?
18       A    I think it's probably one of thousands of
19  pieces of information that Mr. Nori would have
20  received from various parents about any number of
21  staff members or coaches in the school.  So my
22  expectation is that he would have that information,
00058
 1  put that information as presented to him, he would
 2  have to balance that against other information that
 3  he had to make a decision and evaluate the conditions
 4  that confronted him with respect to who he would have
 5  to assign to coaching positions, who would he assign
 6  to teaching positions, and who he would -- and I
 7  don't know this to be the case, but as a
 8  hypothetical -- he may have heard information from
 9  some folks who say that a particular coach or teacher
10  is the greatest teacher they ever had.  You may also
11  hear from others that he's the worst teacher they
12  ever had.  So a principal has to sort through all of
13  that information and try to make the very best
14  decision he has based on the information he has.
15            So that's what I would expect him to do.  I
16  would not expect him to immediately take action
17  against any teacher or coach because he received that
18  information.  I would expect him to say I have
19  received information that requires me to take a look
20  at this, to evaluate that information with respect to
21  the other information that he had received.
22       Q    Looking at Exhibit Number 2, which is the
00059
 1  set of documents that I received from your office, it
 2  appears that there are no documents dated between
 3  November, December 1, 1997, and then February when
 4  the investigation apparently had concluded.
 5            Do you know what transpired, what the
 6  nature of the investigation was that took place
 7  between December 1 and February 20th?
 8       A    At that point as Mr. Glascoe states in his
 9  letter, this was to update me on where the
10  investigation was, who was involved in it, who people
11  were focusing on and who they are talking to.  So my
12  expectation during this period of time, they were
13  gathering information and trying to determine what
14  course they were going to take with the investigation
15  based on the letters that we had received from Mrs.
16  Sutton.
17       Q    Did you personally compare the information
18  that you were receiving concerning the investigation
19  about the specifics of the complaint as laid out in
20  the November 12th letter?
21       A    I had asked Mr. Glascoe, and I worked with
22  Mr. Glascoe on this case to make sure that they
00060
 1  followed up and addressed each of the, however many
 2  there were, point by point, each of the complaints
 3  made by Mrs. Sutton.  And assumed that that indeed
 4  was what they were doing, and I was told that they
 5  were in fact doing that.  As information came in we
 6  would go back up and try to follow up on any new
 7  information we may have received.
 8       Q    I assume in your position you receive a lot
 9  of complaints about personnel within the school
10  system?
11       A    I do.
12       Q    And I would also assume that you may
13  receive numerous complaints from single sources that
14  would cause you to have an impression created about
15  the person who is the complainer, if you will, and
16  some people just complain all the time and therefore
17  their complaints carry less weight than others who
18  are less frequent in voicing concerns.  Would that be
19  fair to say?
20       A    No, not in terms of what I see.  Every
21  complaint that comes across my desk, we have 16,500,
22  every one that I receive I take seriously and
00061
 1  delegate to the director in charge of that school and
 2  cluster and take it seriously.  I don't evaluate each
 3  one, I try to respond to each one.  Some complaints
 4  clearly are different than others, and this
 5  particular complaint, as I said, I contacted Mrs.
 6  Sutton.  I don't always contact the parent, based on
 7  the complaints that I read, I felt it was very
 8  important that we follow through on the complaints
 9  and I wanted to convey that we would.  Some
10  complaints are far more severe than this.  A parent
11  can complain frequently or infrequently, it's the
12  nature of the complaint that we try to find.
13       Q    What is your understanding -- let me put it
14  this way:  Mr. Hassler has characterized the results
15  of this investigation as having, quote, exonerated
16  him, close quote.
17            Would that be how you describe the results
18  of this investigation?
19       A    I would only describe the results of the
20  investigation as that in terms of all the individuals
21  that we spoke with that we followed up with that some
22  of the allegations we could not substantiate.
00062
 1       Q    Some of the allegations?
 2       A    Some of these were treated prior to the
 3  complaint and addressed so that the allegation, there
 4  was either an explanation for them or they were
 5  unsubstantiated by others.  It doesn't mean that they
 6  were true or not true, that we didn't substantiate,
 7  and I think that is what we said.  We did not use the
 8  word exonerate.
 9       Q    You did not conduct the investigation
10  personally?
11       A    I did not.
12       Q    Do you have an understanding as to what the
13  complaint was concerning what Mr. Hassler told his
14  team about the softball clinic?
15            MR. RAND:  I'm sorry, what is the question?
16  BY MR. SUNTUM:
17       Q    I am trying to figure out whether Dr.
18  Seleznow understands the nature of the complaint.
19       A    I was not involved in the complaint about
20  the softball clinic.  What I knew was that was
21  addressed, in the process of addressing that
22  complaint, action was taken with respect to it.
00063
 1       Q    Would it be appropriate for a coach who
 2  realized that having his player attend a softball
 3  clinic was improper and in violation of Montgomery
 4  County rules to tell his team if you are asked about
 5  the clinic, just tell them you're here helping out
 6  the little kids.
 7       A    I clearly would not expect the coach, if a
 8  coach had knowingly violated a procedure or process
 9  or policy to engage his or her students in any way
10  that would be illegal or deceitful.
11       Q    Do you know whether or not the nature of
12  that complaint was in fact investigated in this
13  instance?
14       A    My understanding is that that complaint had
15  been investigated and that it was discussed with
16  students and there were a range of views that
17  students presented.
18       Q    And you relied upon Mr. Nori?
19       A    Mr. Nori and Mr. Glascoe.  Mr. Glascoe has
20  been a director for six years, has previously been a
21  high school principal and I rely on his expertise and
22  Mr. Nori is an experienced principal and I rely on
00064
 1  his expertise to follow up, and I do, and was made
 2  aware that this issue had been investigated through
 3  the State process.
 4       Q    Would it be fair to say that you relied
 5  upon Mr. Glascoe and Mr. Nori to conduct an adequate
 6  investigation of these complaints and you relied upon
 7  their representation to you as to what that
 8  investigation revealed?
 9       A    I have to.  I have, as I said, 185 schools
10  and I rely on my directors to thoroughly investigate
11  all complaints that we receive, to the best of their
12  ability, to work closely with the principals in doing
13  so.
14       Q    Did you have any follow up conversation
15  with Mr. Glascoe after receiving his memo of
16  February 20th concerning the specifics of the
17  investigation, and that's Bates stamped page 342, and
18  assumed that everything was in order?
19       A    I read that.  I believe, I don't recall a
20  specific conversation but I believe I discussed this
21  with Mr. Glascoe because I had asked him to keep me
22  regularly updated on the progress of the
00065
 1  investigation and what decisions were being made and
 2  what they were finding.
 3       Q    Did you come to understand after
 4  February 20th that Mrs. Sutton was apprised of the
 5  results of the investigation on February 19th?
 6       A    I don't recall the time sequence at all.
 7       Q    Let me direct your attention to Bates
 8  stamped 344, which is a letter addressed to Ms.
 9  Signor?
10       A    Yes.
11       Q    Did you receive a copy of that letter?
12       A    I believe so, yes.
13       Q    And that's a letter from Mrs. Sutton
14  reflecting that she was first advised of the results
15  of the investigation on February 19th, correct?
16       A    That is what it says here, yes.
17       Q    Did you take any action to investigate
18  whether or not that is in fact the case?
19       A    Again, I don't recall the exact dates of
20  these discussions.  I do recall that at that point
21  based on the investigation of Mr. Nori, and I had
22  still not seen Mr. Nori's written response to the
00066
 1  points, and I had talked to Mr. Glascoe of having Mr.
 2  Nori respond to each of the points in the letter.
 3  And that was the information we had at that time,
 4  that was March 9th, in terms of what Mr. Nori found
 5  and what he substantiated or did not.
 6       Q    Let me direct your attention to page 359
 7  and ask you what that document is.
 8       A    This is a note from a secretary in the
 9  board office just indicating that this was received
10  by a board member, Ms. Signor, and was forwarding
11  this package to me.  Because board members often hear
12  appeals, they have to recluse themselves of
13  addressing something that is under investigation.
14       Q    And you received this package of materials
15  on March 2nd?
16       A    I believe I stamped in March 2nd.
17       Q    And you wrote a responsive letter to Mrs.
18  Sutton March 3rd?
19       A    Yes.
20       Q    Scheduling a meeting with her on March 6th
21  to discuss her concerns?
22       A    Right.
00067
 1       Q    Do you recall that meeting?
 2       A    I don't recall it offhand.  I know I had
 3  another meeting with Mrs. Sutton.  I think, if that
 4  was, I know I had, I cannot remember the number of
 5  meetings I had with Mrs. Sutton, but I think that was
 6  the meeting where she came to my office.  Again, I'm
 7  sorry, but I just cannot recall the time frames.
 8       Q    Do you recall relaying to Mrs. Sutton the
 9  story about an incident that you experienced
10  yourself?
11       A    Yes.
12       Q    What experience was that?
13       A    When I met with Mrs. Sutton, Mrs. Sutton
14  was very concerned about the results of our
15  investigation.  I tried to be as open as I possibly
16  could with Mrs. Sutton.  Mrs. Sutton was concerned
17  that we did not take her complaint seriously and that
18  we did not do a thorough and complete investigation
19  of her complaints.  And although I don't recall her
20  exact words, my interpretation was that she had
21  suggested that we were -- again I don't know that
22  these were Mrs. Sutton's exact words -- but covering
00068
 1  up, not anxious to move forward or fearful of moving
 2  forward.  Despite what I was conveying to Mrs.
 3  Sutton, I still felt that she did not believe that we
 4  were sensitive to these issues and I wanted to convey
 5  to her that indeed we were sensitive to these issues.
 6  In fact I have never done this before and probably
 7  never will do it again, I shared a personal
 8  experience that I had as I high school student to try
 9  to demonstrate to her that I did understand the
10  seriousness and I was empathetic to the concerns she
11  had raised and that I wanted to convey to her that
12  indeed we were not insensitive to these concerns,
13  that we were not interested in doing anything but
14  trying to get to the bottom of it, trying to make the
15  best decisions possible, trying to be fair and
16  thorough in the investigation.  So I chose to share
17  that personal experience simply to convey to her that
18  I understood what her concerns were and that I was
19  sensitive to concerns of teachers, coaches and
20  students, and in fact that is why I was in this
21  profession.
22       Q    Did you advise her that Mr. Hassler would
00069
 1  be watched closely?
 2       A    Part of our responsibility in any
 3  complaint, particularly when, according to Mr. Nori,
 4  that he had very different points of view and was
 5  unable, in his view, because he had different points
 6  of view on this case, to substantiate the complaints
 7  that he had to the extent that he was completely
 8  comfortable, that our responsibility was to monitor
 9  Mr. Hassler and Mr. Hassler's coaching strategies and
10  techniques -- and that is not uncommon when we
11  receive a complaint -- that we continue to monitor
12  the situation, or monitor the individual, and I
13  assured her that indeed we would.
14       Q    Did you have conversations with
15  Ms. Bouve-Johnson?
16       A    I don't recall any.
17       Q    Did you have any conversations yourself
18  with Mr. Nori?
19       A    I did not meet directly with Mr. Nori.  Mr.
20  Nori and I talked at one point in terms of some
21  questions he had about the process of investigation,
22  and I said to him that I would be happy after we
00070
 1  complete the investigation to talk to him about the
 2  process of investigation, how we would do it.
 3       Q    I'm sorry, Mr. Nori expressed questions?
 4       A    No.  It was just procedural issues in terms
 5  of how an investigation, how this investigation, how
 6  investigations are managed and conducted, it was not
 7  a significant conversation.  Often times after an
 8  investigation we will debrief with the principal in
 9  terms of process used, and any remaining issues or
10  questions they may have are a part of our job in
11  working with the principal supervising, evaluating
12  them, and that's not uncommon with a new first year
13  high school principal to have such a conversation.
14       Q    The context of this investigation again was
15  in November, which is prior to the softball season,
16  and as I understand it Mr. Hassler did not have a
17  claim of right to the position as softball coach, so
18  I'm curious as to what standard was applied as to
19  whether or not these complaints were, quote, proven
20  or disproven with respect to deciding whether or not
21  he should be continued as coach?
22       A    I think that's a decision that rests with
00071
 1  the principal.  And every principal is expected and
 2  required to evaluate who they select as coaches.  Mr.
 3  Nori felt obviously at that time that he was
 4  confident based on what he discovered that he would
 5  have Mr. Hassler continue as coach, laying out
 6  certain expectations which he did to Mr. Hassler
 7  following the investigation.
 8            Again, I think that Mr. Nori can speak to
 9  his decision process.  I have to rely on the judgment
10  of principals in terms of who they select and their
11  reasons for doing so.  Clearly Mr. Nori had a number
12  of concerns which he had articulated to Mr. Hassler.
13  It's not uncommon, again, for a new principal coming
14  into a school to take the information that they have
15  and evaluate it, lay out their expectations and
16  monitor the situation themselves.  I don't know if
17  that was Mr. Nori's exact thinking, but it is not
18  uncommon.
19       Q    Would it be fair to say that the
20  investigation although it did not apparently result
21  in Mr. Nori removing Mr. Hassler, it did raise
22  concerns that would cause Mr. Nori and the system to
00072
 1  watch Mr. Hassler more closely?
 2       A    That's correct, to monitor Mr. Hassler's
 3  coaching.
 4       Q    Would it be fair to say that the adjective
 5  exoneration would not be appropriate?
 6       A    That was not a term that I ever used or
 7  ever heard Mrs. Sutton use or Mr. Nori use.  We
 8  simply said that on the basis of what we found over
 9  those months of looking at it, that the expectations
10  that Mr. Nori laid out would be applied to Mr.
11  Hassler, and if Mr. Nori, as he did, would remain
12  open to any other information he might receive with
13  respect so any concerns with respect to Mr. Hassler's
14  coaching.
15       Q    Do you know why Mr. Hassler does not
16  continue to be softball coach this year?
17       A    Mr. Nori has shared with me his reasons for
18  doing that.
19       Q    What were those reasons?
20       A    After the season he had received, to my
21  knowledge, information from several parents whom he
22  had spoken to during the course of the season, but
00073
 1  who came to him after the season and raised some
 2  questions about the group dynamics of the team.  It
 3  was on the basis of that information that Mr. Nori
 4  decided at that time that he would not continue with
 5  Mr. Hassler as softball coach.  That's the way I
 6  understand.
 7       Q    Do you remember making a comment to the
 8  effect that Mr. Hassler's file was empty and
 9  therefore there wasn't sufficient information or
10  record in his file to justify removal?
11       A    I remember talking to Mrs. Sutton about
12  this case and I think it was that same meeting which
13  we just discussed and indicated again, trying to
14  explain, Mrs. Sutton had serious concerns and
15  reservations about the process of this investigation.
16  And again in the interest of trying to be open and
17  straight forward with Mrs. Sutton to indicate a
18  process that we use, and I don't recall using the
19  word empty, but I do recall discussing with her the
20  process of when we take a case, what information we
21  expect to have, what we feel is necessary as the
22  investigators of the case to corroborate,
00074
 1  substantiate and support allegations for removal of a
 2  particular person.  The time we discussed, the
 3  information that was presented to me from the
 4  perspective of the principal and director was that we
 5  did not have information at that time in the file
 6  combined with what they discovered in the complaint
 7  that they could make a case at that point or that
 8  they were prepared to make a case at that point.
 9       Q    Did you personally review Mr. Hassler's
10  file?
11       A    I did not personally review Mr. Hassler's
12  file, that was up to Mr. Nori and Mr. Glascoe as part
13  of their investigation.  They had shared with me
14  their impressions of the materials that they were
15  aware of, that they had seen.
16            MR. SUNTUM:  I don't have anything further.
17  Thank you.
18            (A brief recess was taken.)
19            MR. RAND:  Doctor, what are your time
20  constraints?
21       A    I probably have a half-hour.
22  
00075
 1       EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE PLAINTIFF:
 2  BY MR. RAND:
 3       Q    Doctor, have you heard coaches in and about
 4  Montgomery County Public Schools from time to time --
 5  when I say schools, I'm talking about Montgomery
 6  County Public Schools, we'll use that term -- have
 7  you had occasion to know that coaches enforced a
 8  policy if you don't practice you can't play the
 9  following week?
10       A    I have heard that.
11       Q    Is there anything about that policy, is
12  there a policy against that policy?
13       A    Not to my knowledge, unless the student has
14  an excused reason.  I would expect coaches to be
15  reasonable in their application of that.  Students
16  are very clear ahead of time what the process is for
17  practice and getting an excused absence from
18  practice, and I expect coaches to be reasonable in
19  applying that to students.
20       Q    As I understand it, before anything of a
21  derogatory nature, before anything goes in a
22  teacher's file either at the high school or at the
00076
 1  Board of Ed, it should be initialed by the teacher so
 2  that he knows what's there?
 3       A    That's correct, teachers have a right to
 4  see their files and know what's in their files.
 5       Q    As I understand what you said, when a
 6  complaint is received by a principal it's really up
 7  to the principal to investigate it, ultimately to
 8  evaluate and determine whether or not it ought to be
 9  part of the file?
10       A    That's correct.
11       Q    You are familiar with the violation which
12  the State found against the clinic that Mr. Hassler
13  conducted in the spring of 1997?
14       A    I'm aware of it.  I won't say that I am
15  intimately familiar with it but I am aware of it.
16       Q    Understanding that any violation of the
17  athletic rules is reasonably serious, how serious did
18  you take the violation that was found to be?
19       A    I felt at that time from the information I
20  had it was serious and had been reviewed thoroughly
21  by the State athletic folks, that it was serious
22  enough to have it reviewed by the State and our
00077
 1  athletic office.
 2       Q    Doctor, in your experience, how long have
 3  you been the assistant?
 4       A    Associate superintendent, this is my third
 5  year as associate superintendent.
 6       Q    In that time have you come to form an
 7  opinion as to how it would be possible for a teacher
 8  to stand before students in Montgomery County Schools
 9  and tell blonde jokes, sexist jokes, bigoted jokes
10  and the like and have it not be reported back to the
11  school early and often?  Do you think it is possible
12  that that could happen in Montgomery County?
13       A    I would expect that we would hear rather
14  quickly if there was a pattern of such behavior in
15  the classroom.
16       Q    And if it continued I presume you think the
17  pattern of complaints would continue also?
18       A    I would expect that and I would expect the
19  principal to follow up on those complaints.
20       Q    And would you further expect there to be
21  evidence in the personnel file of counsel with regard
22  to inappropriate jokes such as I just enumerated?
00078
 1       A    Again, it would depend on the severity and
 2  the nature of the complaints.  If it was a single
 3  complaint or if there are many complaints I would
 4  expect principals if this was a pattern of behavior
 5  to have documented it and have action taken and have
 6  certainly placed it in that person's file.
 7       Q    Is it Mr. Gramm or Dr. Gramm?
 8       A    Mr. Gramm, I believe.
 9       Q    He was the principal prior to Mr. Nori?
10       A    That's correct.
11       Q    In your experience, was he a reasonably
12  thorough principal -- let me ask you first of all if
13  he was a competent principal?
14       A    He was a competent principal.
15       Q    And when he received complaints did he take
16  them seriously and investigate them such as you
17  described today?
18       A    It had been my experience that he had.
19       Q    And with regard to Mr. Nori, how long has
20  he been a principal?
21       A    This is his second year at Magruder and he
22  had been principal at Julius West Middle School prior
00079
 1  to that for I think about four years, so all told as
 2  principal, six years experience as a principal.
 3       Q    Do you regard him as a competent principal?
 4       A    I do.
 5       Q    Have you found that when he receives
 6  complaints that he undertakes investigations that are
 7  reasonably thorough and reasonably complete such as
 8  you described in your earlier testimony?
 9       A    I expect that and it is my experience that
10  he's thorough and complete in his work.
11       Q    How long had Mr. Gramm been a principal in
12  Montgomery County schools?
13       A    I don't know that offhand.  I do not recall
14  the actual number of years, several years.  I can't
15  remember exactly how long he was at Magruder.
16       Q    As I understood your testimony you had not
17  been contacted by Elizabeth Bouve-Johnson concerning
18  this event?
19       A    I don't recall discussing that with her.
20       Q    Had you been contacted by Ed Masood
21  concerning this?
22       A    No, I had not.
00080
 1       Q    Concerning the allegations that are set
 2  forth in the Sutton letter of November 12, 1997, how
 3  many investigations were actually conducted into
 4  those allegations?
 5       A    How many investigations?
 6       Q    Yes.
 7       A    It was one as far as I can tell, one
 8  investigation.  There was a previous investigation
 9  regarding the softball clinic that was done
10  independently of this, but we initiated one
11  investigation that took place over the course of the
12  last school year.
13       Q    It has been alleged by Mrs. Sutton in her
14  earlier deposition testimony that you covered up for
15  Mr. Hassler and the rest of the school
16  administration, is that true?
17       A    I did no such thing.
18       Q    You indicated that you had shared with Mrs.
19  Sutton at one point a personal experience when you
20  were in high school, could you tell me what that
21  experience was?  If you prefer not to Doctor, I
22  would --
00081
 1       A    Is it in the record already?
 2       Q    It's not, I haven't had a chance to review
 3  the new documents.  Other than that, if you prefer
 4  not to answer, feel free to so indicate.
 5       A    No, I'll share the experience.
 6            I was a high school football player and I
 7  had a coach who had attempted to remove me from the
 8  team because I could not practice on a day of a
 9  religious holiday.  I remembered it quite well and I
10  was sensitive to that, the issues that we have been
11  discussing.
12       Q    Thank you.
13            There have been suggestions made by Mrs.
14  Sutton that an examination of Mr. Hassler's file
15  revealed that it was, quote, an empty file or words
16  to that effect.
17       A    I don't recall using words to that effect.
18  I don't know the exact words.  I know that I had
19  shared with Mrs. Sutton the process and the decision
20  making process that is used in investigations in
21  terms of actions that we take and what information
22  would be used in terms of documenting the pattern of
00082
 1  behavior and what information that would be in the
 2  file that would be relevant to the allegations made
 3  and the decisions that the principal would make.
 4       Q    I understand that you didn't review Mr.
 5  Hassler's file personally, but I presume that you
 6  asked Mr. Nori or Mr. Glascoe whether or not it
 7  revealed a pattern of conduct such as complained of
 8  in the letter of November 12th?
 9       A    This is a standard part of an
10  investigation.  I would expect they would look at an
11  individual's file to see if there was anything in the
12  file that speaks to the allegation.
13       Q    Did you conclude that his file did contain
14  a pattern of behavior such as was complained of
15  concerning items such as complained about in the
16  November 12th letter?
17       A    I was told and I indicated that there was
18  nothing in Mr. Hassler's file that they felt, based
19  on their investigation of these complaints, that
20  would connect them.
21       Q    Who told you that?
22       A    That was, I believe, a conversation I had
00083
 1  with Mr. Glascoe after his conversations with Mr.
 2  Nori in the course of this investigation.  It was
 3  their assessment of both what they found in this
 4  investigation and what they saw in the file.
 5       Q    Did they report to you whether or not they
 6  found an unusual number of complaints and/or
 7  reprimands or other disciplinary actions in Mr.
 8  Hassler's case as against your average teacher?
 9       A    I don't recall.
10       Q    Mrs. Sutton in Exhibit Number 3, which is
11  her notes of a phone call with you on November 23rd,
12  indicates that you said words to the effect, I want
13  you to know that such things will not happen on my
14  watch, my office will launch an investigation
15  beginning tomorrow, but I can assure you if one of
16  these 17 things is true, I will personally fire him.
17  I don't care how popular he is in the community.
18            Did you say that or words to that effect?
19       A    I don't recall the exact words I used.  I
20  recall in the discussion Mrs. Sutton's concern that
21  the school system would take it seriously, and that I
22  certainly was not influenced by one's tenure or
00084
 1  support in the community.  That if the allegations
 2  could be corroborated, that we would take the most
 3  serious action that we could, which would be
 4  dismissal.  I tried to communicate to Mrs. Sutton our
 5  commitment to looking into these kinds of allegations
 6  and to taking them very seriously.  Again I don't
 7  recall the exact words I used.  I know that I was
 8  concerned about her allegations and that's why I had
 9  called her.
10       Q    Is it fair so say that everybody from Dr.
11  Vance down the chain of command now knows who Mr.
12  Hassler is, that he's been the center of an
13  investigation?
14       A    I can't speak for that.  When a complaint
15  of this nature comes in, the superintendent and
16  deputy superintendent expect that my office or the
17  office they refer this to, as he had done here, would
18  do a thorough and rigorous investigation.  The
19  superintendent is not involved, or the deputy, in
20  these specific investigations.
21       Q    The complaints that were contained in the
22  letter of November 12th are very serious complaints
00085
 1  in your opinion?
 2       A    That's correct.
 3       Q    Mr. Hassler was removed as a coach from at
 4  least the softball team.  Has there been any
 5  discussion with Mr. Nori with regard to his possible
 6  return as a coach of the softball team?
 7       A    No.  I haven't discussed that with Mr.
 8  Nori.
 9       Q    Has there been any discussion with Mr. Nori
10  concerning Mr. Hassler continuing as a wrestling
11  coach?
12       A    I did speak to Mr. Nori regarding the
13  decision he made with respect to Mr. Hassler's
14  continuing as wrestling coach.
15       Q    What was the conversation?
16       A    I just asked Mr. Nori, given his reasons
17  for not hiring Mr. Hassler to coach softball again,
18  what were his reasons for having him continue as
19  coaching the wrestling team.
20       Q    What was the response?
21       A    Mr. Nori felt that Mr. Hassler under his
22  supervision could continue to coach the wrestling
00086
 1  team.  He felt that the nature of wrestling program
 2  was such that Mr. Hassler could serve his school in
 3  that capacity.  It was Mr. Nori's judgment that he
 4  could.
 5       Q    Would it be fair to say in your eyes that
 6  Mr. Hassler's career has been seriously damaged by
 7  this entire instance?
 8            MR. SUNTUM:  Objection, you go ahead and
 9  answer.
10       A    To my knowledge, to my sense of it, no.
11  His career is not, he's still teaching.  He is not
12  coaching softball right now, but he's coaching
13  wrestling.
14  BY MR. RAND:
15       Q    Is it fair to say, however, that the
16  complaint and the aftermath of that complaint would
17  damage him as being considered for a post as softball
18  coach, athletic director, either one?
19       A    That's very difficult for me to answer that
20  question.  I would simply say his performance as his
21  past performance in any position he sought would be
22  evaluated fairly and accurately based on all the
00087
 1  information we had.  He has been removed as softball
 2  coach and that's the extent of it at this point.  Any
 3  principal who would consider Mr. Hassler for any
 4  position would need to, as they would for anybody,
 5  look at Mr. Hassler's credentials, his experience,
 6  his coaching methods, organizational methods and make
 7  a decision.
 8       Q    Would it be fair to say that if you had two
 9  equally qualified coaches, one of which had been
10  removed as softball coach and one who was not, the
11  person not removed would have the advantage?
12       A    Well, I think anybody that would evaluate
13  anybody for any position would have a question about
14  that, would want to know what the reasons were and
15  then the principal who would be selecting or athletic
16  director selecting that coach would make an informed
17  decision.  In any hiring process, principals would
18  evaluate a person's performance, the recommendations
19  from the principal and athletic detector, any items
20  in the person's file they found pertinent to make a
21  decision.
22       Q    Would it be fair to characterize Mr.
00088
 1  Hassler as being a controversial person in Magruder
 2  High School?
 3       A    I just can't say that.  I have no
 4  information to suggest that he is.  And I have heard
 5  nothing from the school or community regarding Mr.
 6  Hassler this year in your dealings with this
 7  complaint.
 8       Q    Some of the complaints dealt with his
 9  competency as a teacher, did you cause an
10  investigation to be made, do you have an opinion as
11  to whether he is a competent teacher?
12       A    I had asked Mr. Glascoe and Mr. Nori to
13  examine his teaching practices and to apply our
14  supervision model to his classroom and to assure that
15  his classroom practices were assessed as we would
16  with any complaint with respect to someone's teaching
17  practices.
18            It's my understanding that Mr. Nori has
19  asked his mathematics resource teacher to be involved
20  and assistant principal to assess and provide
21  whatever direction or support that is needed.
22       Q    My question was do you have an opinion as
00089
 1  to whether Mr. Hassler is a competent mathematics
 2  teacher?
 3       A    The only information I have is the
 4  information provided through the evaluation system
 5  and what the principals have indicated.
 6       Q    And do you know what in general that
 7  performance evaluation says regarding Mr. Hassler?
 8       A    I have not seen his evaluations.
 9       Q    Is it fair to say that if Mr. Hassler was
10  being considered either as a resource teacher or as
11  an athletic director for any high school it would be
12  fair to say that if that principal knew about this
13  complaint and its aftermath, that he would be in a
14  less advantageous position to be appointed than
15  someone who did not have such complaints made against
16  him?
17       A    I would only have to speculate on that.
18  Again, as I said before, anybody that is in
19  consideration for a position, any principal would do
20  background, speak to the person's past supervisors
21  and make a determination on the information they
22  gather and the interview they have with that person.
00090
 1  It's not uncommon in Montgomery County to have had
 2  complaints made about one's performance, but I would
 3  expect any principal to evaluate all the available
 4  information and make the best decision.  I cannot say
 5  Mr. Hassler would be considered or not considered.
 6  Clearly Mr. Nori continued him as wrestling coach.
 7       Q    Currently his record would indicate that
 8  he's being monitored by the administration, is that
 9  right?
10       A    That's correct.
11       Q    And would that constitute a red flag for
12  anyone considering Mr. Hassler for resource teacher
13  or athletic director?
14       A    Again, that's very difficult to say.  The
15  monitoring is part of making sure that principal and
16  staff are open to any issues that may arise regarding
17  treatment of students in the school, either through
18  coaching or through other activities or through
19  teaching.  But there is not a red flag in his file at
20  this point that would identify that other than the
21  documentation that you have.
22            There is a process in our evaluation system
00091
 1  where a teacher can be put on mid year report if the
 2  principal feels it's necessary, which means they have
 3  serious concerns about their teaching.  I don't know
 4  whether Mr. Hassler has been put on mid year report
 5  or not.  That would be an indication of the
 6  principal's concerns at that point.
 7       Q    In your contact with this case, did you
 8  receive any information concerning Mr. Hassler's
 9  reputation in the community?
10       A    A part of what I learned from speaking with
11  Mr. Glascoe about this case and the people that were
12  questioned and talked to, that there were a number of
13  people who supported Mr. Hassler, a number of people
14  who were indifferent with Mr. Hassler, and as with
15  Mrs. Sutton, some that were concerned with Mr.
16  Hassler.
17            MR. RAND:  Thank you for answering my
18  questions.
19            MR. SUNTUM:  Thank you very much.
20            You have a right to read the transcript of
21  your deposition to correct any recording errors if
22  you wish to do that, or simply rely on the accuracy
00092
 1  of the court reporter, you have a right to see a copy
 2  of the deposition if you would like and note any
 3  errors, but you can't change the testimony.
 4       A    That would be fine.
 5            (Signature having not been waived, the
 6  deposition of STEVEN G. SELEZNOW, Ph.D., was
 7  concluded at 10:45 a.m.)
 8               ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF DEPONENT
 9            I, STEVEN G. SELEZNOW, Ph.D., do hereby
10  acknowledge that I have read and examined the
11  foregoing testimony, and the same is a true, correct
12  and complete transcription of the testimony given by
13  me and any corrections appear on the attached errata
14  sheet signed by me.
15  
16  ________________________     ________________________
17         (DATE)                     (SIGNATURE)
18  
19  
20  
21  
22  
00093
 1    CERTIFICATE OF SHORTHAND REPORTER - NOTARY PUBLIC
 2            I, Barbara Massengill, Registered
 3  Professional Reporter, the officer before whom the
 4  foregoing deposition was taken, do hereby certify
 5  that the foregoing transcript is a true and correct
 6  record of the testimony given; that said testimony
 7  was taken by me stenographically and thereafter
 8  reduced to typewriting under my supervision; and that
 9  I am neither counsel for or related to, nor employed
10  by any of the parties to this case and have no
11  interest, financial or otherwise, in its outcome.
12            IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my
13  hand and affixed my notarial seal this 7th day of
14  February 1999.
15  My commission expires:
16  November 6, 2002
17  
18  ____________________________
19  NOTARY PUBLIC IN AND FOR THE
20  STATE OF MARYLAND
21  
22